Need some DCC help, please (reverse loops).

ranulf
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No votes yet

I am a total DCC noob.  I have not even picked a system to use yet, and I have some questions.

 

Here is a very simplified drawing of my track plan (minus all passing sidings and spurs).  As can be seen, it features both a wye and a reversing loop.  I have identified short circuits at A and B.  Given their close proximity to each other, is it possible I could use just one auto reversing module?  Or do I need 2?  How many power districts will I needto cut this into, and where should I put the rail gaps?  Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you.

[Admin note] Subject line edited to hint at the SUBJECT.


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Jacko-Pat
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Ranulf I suggest..........

  Get online and go to Digitrax,NCE,Lenz,Cimo's sites. Check out what they each have to offer as far as expandability AND a price you can afford. As an example I went with NCE Power Cab, because I can use the Power Cab throttle with a Pro-Cab system as a second throttle. Many of the systems are expandable, and they are all good products. I happen to really like the Digitrax decoders.......my choice but they all play nice together because of standards.  Laughing

Jacko




Darkstorm
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A matter of operation and rolling stock

You can get away with just two power districts, because the loop and the wye spur turnouts are so close.  Isolating both routes at each of A and B, and wiring the loop and the wye spur (past A) as a single district, with an Automatic Reversing Booster powering it, would work. 

The only case where this would be a problem is if you expect to have two powered units crossing both A and B at the same time.  Keep in mind this would include lighted cars:  Kato cars, for instance, route power between trucks, so if you're backing a Daylight/EB/Zephyr across both the wye and reversing loop, this would be insufficient, and you'd need two reversers.

Also, depending on how many feet of track you have, and how many trains you intend to have running, you could split these into additional districts, but as far as covering your shorts, it's not required.




taz-n-rr
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Ranulf, I took a look at

Ranulf,
 
I took a look at Allan Gartner's site:
  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/
 
And developed this suggestion:
 

080929 Recommended Reversing Section DCC_Schematicwww.wiringfordcc.com I would recommend one reversing section as marked out above in blue and green as used by Allan."/>

 
I would recommend one reversing section as marked out above in blue and green the way Allan draws his illustrations.  I have drawn it large enough to encompass all the reversing shorts, and a similar train length as would fit on the wye.  As the Darkstorm says though you should avoid trains shorting out in two different places at the same time.  Only one reverser is needed for the reverse section as drawn.
 
Any thoughts, corrections, improvements to my grand idea guys?
 
Thanks,
Charles




ranulf
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AHA!  Thanks

AHA!  Thanks guys!

Jacko-pat, the Powercab was on my short list already.  I have been doing some checking around.  

Darkstorm, I'm sorry but I don't exactly understand waht you are asying about the lights.  Don't the bridge rectifiers in the car lighting circuits take care of any problem?  If you mean what I think you are saying, then I can see there being a problem if all the trucks of a train of lighted passenger cars were connected in the same circuit (is that what you mean?), but I don't have any trains like that.

Taz-n-rail, thank you, I could not quite see where to put the gaps before, and I am pleased to see that I should not have to gap the entire reversing loop.  The drawing I provided is not at all to scale, the reverse loop is very long, and I planned some passing sidings on it.  I had wondered how reversing units dealt with multiple trains in a section to be reversed.  Your solution is elegant.  There is actually a helix going in between the turnout at B and the turnout drawn directly below it, so I should not have to isolate as far as you have drawn (there's a lot of track between those 2 turnouts).  So if I understand correctly I just need to isolate a train length and the wye turnout?  I will probably make it longer than a train length so I can accomodate an overly long train.  I'm going to spend time digesting this and absorbing info from that site you suggested to see if I can wrap my brain around this.

Thanks for your help and suggestions, guys!


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Darkstorm
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Of Cars and Gaps
ranulf wrote:

Don't the bridge rectifiers in the car lighting circuits take care of any problem?  If you mean what I think you are saying, then I can see there being a problem if all the trucks of a train of lighted passenger cars were connected in the same circuit (is that what you mean?)

 

What I'm referring to is the electrical pickup for the cars.  This affects layout operation even if you have not installed lighting units in those cars.  The internal electronics are irrelevant.  (This is also an issue with block wiring in some cases, it's not just a DCC issue).

Every car has a "footprint" which covers the length that the car must travel to clear an electrical gap.  Until the footprint crosses the gap, the two blocks are electrically connected to each other.  If the blocks are reverse polarity from each other, either a short occurs, or an auto-reversing circuit might kick in.

  • For a car with plastic wheels, their footprint is zero: the car does not conduct electricity.
  • For a car with metal wheels but no wipers or other pickup, each axle has a small footprint of a small fraction (1/64?) of an inch.  Each wheel will temporarily bridge the gap as it crosses.  (If your gaps are larger than this size, then these cars also can be treated as zero.)
  • For a car with wipers or pickup on it trucks, the footprint for each truck is the distance between the axles on that truck.  For passenger trucks, this can be as large as an inch. 
  • For some cars, and many locomotives, all the wheels on one side are used for electrical pickup. (Kato passenger cars are the most common example here, where the trucks are connected across the car by copper strips.)  This is desirable for good operation, but it means that the electrial footprint spans the length of the car

The DCC problem comes when two different sections of track are connected to the same power district, and two cars bridge gaps between those two track sections and a third common track section (either of these districts could be auto-reversed).  Now all three sections are electrically connected, but no polarity for the auto-reverser can correctly power them.  In this case, a short occurs, and the districts shut off.




ranulf
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OK. I understand now

OK. I understand now completely.

Thank you for the clarification, Darkstorm!


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"Do Not Hump!?!?! Does that mean what I think it means!?"

I only posted for the points.




taz-n-rr
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Ranulf, What you said

Ranulf,
 
What you said about isolating the turnout and length of the reversing section sounds good to me.  Just to be complete I updated the drawing.
 


 
Have fun,
Charles




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