Todd, I hate to disagree, but....DCC is expensive. I've got it and I love it and I wouldn't go back to DC and fight all those blocks for anything. However, I think it's only fair to consider the cost of decoders when comparing expensiveness. Decoder equipped locomotives are more expensive than their DC brothers and if the locomotive does not come equipped, the modeler is faced with the burden of figuring out how to get a decoder into the thing. There's the cost of the decoder, potential cost of frame milling, potential cost of hiring someone to install the thing and so on. Example, I just bought a Bachmann Critter for $17.95. It's cute and it really runs good for such a small locomotive; runs good on DC that is.
So, I decided to shop around for a decoder install service. After paying for all those things mentioned above, I now have a very cute critter chugging along on my DCC layout and my $17.95 locomotive ended up costing me a total of $88.00. I think it's worth it but not everyone would agree.
The good thing from my point of view is that the cost of decoders and their installation has kept me from going crazy buying locomotives. Well, not totally but I hate to think how many I would have purchased were it not for the decoder hurdle. My 2 cents. ...Tom
Re:
tomgschilling wrote:
When making your comparisons, you also need to consider what it costs to wire a conventional layout for block control.
A small layout with one or two controllers isn't that expensive to wire.
A basement sized layout wired for 6 cabs, and dispatcher controlled mainline turnouts, will be at least as expensive as doing the same job with DCC, including buying the decoders and boosters.
The difference here is where the costs are.
Most of the cost of building for DC is in the control panel, and running wiring to varrious points on the layout so the control system works (I know someone who has more than 1000' of bus wiring in a 12X24' train room!).
Most of the cost in the DCC system is in solid state electronics (a Command station, one or more boosters,one or more hand held throttles, mobile and stationary decoders), and the cost of running wires is actually pretty minimal.
Todd, I hate to disagree, but....DCC is expensive. I've got it and I love it and I wouldn't go back to DC and fight all those blocks for anything. However, I think it's only fair to consider the cost of decoders when comparing expensiveness. Decoder equipped locomotives are more expensive than their DC brothers and if the locomotive does not come equipped, the modeler is faced with the burden of figuring out how
Quote:
Of course, it's possible to do this yourself for much less money. I could probably get the decoder for it for $12-$15, so the total cost of obtaining the critter and the decoder should be $30 to $35.
I have never (and will never) pay someone to install a decoder in a locomotive.
Frames can be milled at home with careful application of proper tools (either a dremel or a hacksaw). If you're not that brave, you can purchase frames that have been milled from a couple of sources.
All the rest of the decoder installation is soldering, which is a skill you should master while building a layout.
Paulto get a decoder into the thing. There's the cost of the decoder, potential cost of frame milling, potential cost of hiring someone to install the thing and so on. Example, I just bought a Bachmann Critter for $17.95. It's cute and it really runs good for such a small locomotive; runs good on DC that is. So, I decided to shop around for a decoder install service. After paying for all those things mentioned above, I now have a very cute critter chugging along on my DCC layout and my $17.95 locomotive ended up costing me a total of $88.00. I think it's worth it but not everyone would agree.
Re:
I Tried to stay out of this one but a simple layout on DC is much easier for a novice to handle and is less expensive.
Also a person that has 1000' of bus wire on a 12 X 24 layout is way overkill.
I guess all that being said it depends on weather you can understand wire diagrams or are able to install decoders and program them.
I happen to use both. My layout is blocked and wired for DC but has a main switch to run DCC on the same block structure. It is easy to convert block control to DCC but not easy to convert DCC to block control.
Mike
:? :) :)
Re:
First, by all means disagree with me! That is why we are here! :D
But I hate block control with a passion. I left the hobby for a while because I just didn't like the idea of having to be so concerned with where my train was on the layout.
Cost has not been an issue in my experience. I started in DCC with the Atlas Master for less than 100 bucks. Bought many of my DCC equipped locos on eBay often for the same price as non-DCC equipped. So I really haven't seen much of a difference. And the benifits far outweigh the hassle (IMVHO) of block control.
That said. We may not be comparing the same quality of locos or power. I got many of my Atlas DCC locos for around 50 dollars. That is indeed more than the average Lifelike or Bachmann. A couple of decent power supplies for block control could easily add up to what I paid for the Atlas DCC system.
So where does that leave us?
Re:
We really should move this part of the discussion to one of the Electronics forums...
fifer wrote:
I don't know about easier. I hear from quite a few people who want to run two trains on a relativly small layout, but a) don't want to put in two mainlines and/or b) can't figure out how to add two cab control to thier layout.
For these people, hooking up a DCC system is definately easier to do. Two wires to the track and a couple of decoders will usually have them up and running in no time.
I Tried to stay out of this one but a simple layout on DC is much easier for a novice to handle and is less expensive.
Quote:
Actually, it's not overkill. It was what was required to get job done.
Consider this, he has a double track mainline, divided into about 25 blocks on two decks (plus a branch line, but I think I counted those blocks already). He also wanted central control of block allocation by the dispatcher (i.e. he didn't want cab selection switches that the engineers would manipulate).
The bus wires controlling each block run to a central point on the layout, and then are routed through the ceiling to the control panel. I think the longest bus wires are about 40' long. (They really are more long feaders than bus wires, since each wire controls one block on the layout.
We might have been able to cut that down some, but, there really was only one convienient place to put the dispatcher's panel.
There's also a seperate panel for the yard, but none of the wire runs there is more than about 5 feet.
Also a person that has 1000' of bus wire on a 12 X 24 layout is way overkill.
Quote:
Can you do one without being able to do the other?
I guess all that being said it depends on weather you can understand wire diagrams or are able to install decoders and program them.
Quote:
I still recommend people wire DCC layouts in blocks. This is for trouble shooting purposes.
The difference here is that your dispatcher's panel doesn't control electrical blocks, but instead controls track and signals in a much more prototypical manner.
As such, you can put the block control switches (which can be simple on/off toggle switches) directly under the blocks they control.
PaulI happen to use both. My layout is blocked and wired for DC but has a main switch to run DCC on the same block structure. It is easy to convert block control to DCC but not easy to convert DCC to block control.
Re:
pbender wrote:
I agree completely. There is nothing better for troubleshooting. It also provides for power districting. My experience with DCC block wiring was much more straight forward than my experience on the DC side of the house.I still recommend people wire DCC layouts in blocks. This is for trouble shooting purposes.
Re:
I think DC cab control is a good way of doing it when you're just starting. It gives you a better understanding of how things work, and you get a good start and training when it comes to wireing. It is also easier to convert that to DCC, than the other way around. I'm just starting out here, so I'm not an expert, but I compare this to webdesign. If you start with the code and write HTML yourself you have a better understanding of it all, and when you need help, you understand what people are telling you. If you start with a software like FrontPage where the code is hidden from you, you don't know how to really fix a problem when it doesn't quite do what you want it to do.
In the beginning, all there was were cab control. Then a C64 could be programmed to do DCC, and a few locos were sold that had decoders in them. Now anyone (almost) has a powerful PC at home, so it's so easy to just start with DCC and forget about where it all came from. I'm sure that the big layout I and my hubby will build later on will use DCC, at least in part, but I like to get my hands dirty and start with old fasion DC cab control :)
Re:
ReptilianFeline wrote:
Couldn't let this go without one final shot :wink:
DCC is tons easier to implement than block control ever was, or ever could be, no matter the size of your layout. More importantly operation of trains is much more realistic (and quite frankly more fun) with DCC. Everything you need to learn about wiring can be accomplished with a DCC system. You want a system that is train and operations-centric, that is what it is all about now isn't it? Block control was a bad but necessary solution to multiple train operation 10 years ago. Now we have a choice that actually allows realistic and simple operation.
Scenario:
You need to start a fire and you get two choices.
1. two sticks to rub together (DC)
2. a lighter and a can of gas (DCC)
I am done now, and I feel better.
Enjoy your DC Layout :D :) Choice is what makes it fun!I think DC cab control is a good way of doing it when you're just starting. It gives you a better understanding of how things work, and you get a good start and training when it comes to wiring.
Re:
I always hated this topic when it appeared on other forums because it frequently ended up in a flame war! :( The simple truth here is: that with which we are personally most happy is the best for us! I have run DC since I started in the hobby. It is simple, full-proof, and easy to understand. I find DCC confusing, expensive, and not easy to use. There are really staunch proponents of DCC out there (including Todd! :D ) but, probably less than one in ten customers at the shop use it. I, frankly, don't see it taking over the hobby. There will be another fad coming down the pike before long. So, please don't try to convert me. It would be the same as peeing on my leg and trying to convince me it's raining out! :P
Dick
Re:
Todd... scenario... you need to build a fire.
You're in the middle of nowhere.
You just dropped your last match in a puddle.
You don't have a lighter.
There is a bunch of sticks on the ground.
What do you do?
1. You use the sticks, because you know how to make a fire using them.
2. You freeze and go without a fire.
:P
:) Being familiar with old as well as new technology gives you better choices. I won't be able to properly compare the two until I have tried both. Since what I have for now isn't DCC, the choice is an easy one. It's easier to convert DC to DCC, than the other way around, at least from what I have read.
I can understand how DCC makes running trains more realistic. It would be just like those setups that run real trains, but... if you want to be "in" the train when you run it, isn't cab control and plain old DC more like that?
Re:
ReptilianFeline wrote:
That is a good question. I was actually thinking about it this morning. If you look at the decoder as the engineer, able to control all (ok most) aspects of the operation of the loco, then I would say DCC is more like operating the real thing. Especially if you add one of those new realistic cab control units to it.
But as I hope it came across in my post, choice is what makes it fun. (Strong opinions, not flames, are what makes this place fun).
I would disagree that DCC is not taking over, but more on that later.I can understand how DCC makes running trains more realistic. It would be just like those setups that run real trains, but... if you want to be "in" the train when you run it, isn't cab control and plain old DC more like that?
Re:
Ok,
I'll weigh in for fun.
I have just installed, and tested my main line. One single track. I was tired of laying road bed and track, and wanted to run in circles for a bit. So I took both (yup, only own two total) DCC equiped locos and stuck them on the track. Dialed in #01, sent it on the way. Dialed in #2 and sent it packing. #1 is my 2-8-0 w/Sound, #2 -7. Well I kept the controller working on #1. For fun I kept them set on the track and tried to keep them equal distance between them. Then would speed up the 2-8-0, sound the horn and so some serious tail gating. Like 1/4" behind the consist of the -7. Was a hoot. Then drove the -2-8-0 off to a sideing, stopped it, reaquired the -7 pulled it onto a siding, and went and had a beer.
I can't talk to block control, as I never considered going that way, but I don't beleive what I did (except for the beer part) would be possible in conventional DC.
As to expense. I think for a beginner starting out. (0 or few locos, DCC is relitivly in expensive) and brings a lot to the table. A buddy on the .org side idicates he has 57(???) locos. I can not imaging the cost of conversion for him.
As to wood sticks or lighter fluid. If i loose my ligher, im getting on the Quad and going back to the cabin. :)
Steve
Re:
I think that DCC when starting from scratch is a much better choice. I agree that it is more expensive if you have a fleet of locos and an investment in a large DC layout.
I just started in the hobby and would have stayed away if it involved block controll. But DCC made for a simple entry into the hobby. I am buying newer locos that are all DCC ready. meaning that I ensure that there is a drop in decoder or good instructions on installing the decoder.
Have Atlas GP38 (drop in), Kato RDC's (almost drop in) and a Kato GEP42 (drop in, still need to buy it).
so far so good (other than that decoder i smoked)
cdnrider
Re:
We're making plans for our layout now, hopefully we'll start the work in the next week or so, right now the layout will be 3x6 , nothing too big, the zoning boad wouldn't release anymore land to the planning board.
Right now i'm planning on block wiring, as much as I'd like DCC, financially I can't justify it. How easy is it to upgrade later, keep in mind this is the way i have to go for now.
Thanks in advance,
Re:
From what I've read so far (and what I keep in mind now when I'm planning my own purchases), is that the biggest problem would be what turnouts you use. Then you can also buy locos that have room for DCC installation (I think that's what's called DCC ready). The different blocks could be soldered together at a later date, but when considering expanding/contracting rail due to weather, and error-checking, the blocks might as well be kept even if you're running DCC.
So... I'm going to make sure I chose and wire the right turnouts, so the change (if it comes) is easily done.
Re:
Hmmm, I think most of the main points about DCC have already been made, except for the price of decoders. From what i've seen with the pricing from atlas, it would appear that they really are making quite a profit on those DCC equipped units (note: last i checked they were about US$40 extra per loco). Now excuse me if i'm a little annoyed at profiteers, I used to work for one, but the realistic price for a decoder is about US$20. So why have companies like Atlas decided to gouge modellers who want there equipment DCC ready, when they could equip all there models with only say a US$25 increase in price, and make alot more people happy.
Another fact about DCC i'd like to add, some of us out there like to show off our 'toys' to the public at exhibitions. Many of these exhibitions are performed with clubs. I personnally don't have a layout of my own, therefore all my equipment gets run on other peoples layouts. Over time i have found that many DC modellers tend to run there power a bit high, about 14V, and this really puts me off fitting any of my locos with decoders since they are only really used at exhibitions (replacing a decoder per exhibition really doesn't appeal when your living on unemployment).
Also, has anyone ever tried to make thier own decoder?
Re:
johnmcc wrote:
Beyond the turnouts, which If they are wired properly for DC operation, they should work fine for DCC operation, the main thing to consider is that you can get sufficient power to all portions of the layouts.
For a layout the size you're talking about, I would use 14 gauge wire for the bus, and drop feeders anywhere you think they are needed.
PaulRight now i'm planning on block wiring, as much as I'd like DCC, financially I can't justify it. How easy is it to upgrade later, keep in mind this is the way i have to go for now.
Re:
alco_haulic wrote:
Actually, I think you're seeing profiteering, where it doesn't really exist.
Take, for example, the recently announced run of Atlas SD50s,SD60s, and SD60Ms. The MSRP for the non-decoder equiped version is $99.95, and for the decoder equiped version, it's $134.95. The decoder itself (which is an OEM version of a Lenz LE062XF) has an MSRP of $34.95, so, by my calculations, there's all of an extra 5 cents in the MSRP.
BTW, street price for the decoder equiped versions is only about $20 more than the non-decoder equiped version, with the prices typically being $80 and $100 respectively.
Hmmm, I think most of the main points about DCC have already been made, except for the price of decoders. From what i've seen with the pricing from atlas, it would appear that they really are making quite a profit on those DCC equipped units (note: last i checked they were about US$40 extra per loco). Now excuse me if i'm a little annoyed at profiteers, I used to work for one, but the realistic price for a decoder is about US$20. So why have companies like Atlas decided to gouge modellers who want there equipment DCC ready, when they could equip all there models with only say a US$25 increase in price, and make alot more people happy.
Quote:
I haven't done this myself, but there are others who have.
The MERG group in the UK is probably the best resource here.
There were actually instructions on the web for building an N-scale decoder, but the site is either gone or down now. If it appears again, I'll post the link.
PaulAlso, has anyone ever tried to make thier own decoder?
Ooops
Sorry about that with the price, i meant to write that i hadn't checked the price since april last year. But the point about fitting all models and getting economies of scale are still valid. Note: I also took the realistic value as a standard chip, not a designed for specific unit board.
Re: Ooops
alco_haulic wrote:
I think there's a little flaw in your logic.
From a parts cost perspective, a wired decoder may be cheaper to purchase, but, It's more costly to install. Making the individual solder connections can be quite time consuming, while a light board decoder can simply be slipped into place, just like the light boards are ( and probably using the same machines - assuming they are installed by machines).
Also, consider what happens if either the decoder is bad, or the install goes bad. Slipping a new light board decoder in takes a couple of minutes. unsoldering a wired decoder, and soldering in a new one could take 5 to 10 times as long to do.
PaulSorry about that with the price, i meant to write that i hadn't checked the price since april last year. But the point about fitting all models and getting economies of scale are still valid. Note: I also took the realistic value as a standard chip, not a designed for specific unit board.
Re:
I'm sorry guys but I agree with RP. I shopped around before I made my decision to start with DC rather than DCC. I felt that for starting out DC was more ecomical, and as an electrician block control is no big deal. Don't get me wrong I do plan on upgrading down the road but learning the basics is the most important thing right now.
Re:
johnmcc wrote:
I could give a price comparison here, and I know some people have to do it, but I really hate to use price as a means to compare the products from different manufacturers. (In my experienced technical opinion, this applies to all products that are technical in nature.)
The truth of the matter is that the systems really fall into three catagories (basic,intermediate, and advanced) all of the systems in a given catagory are basically equivilent in terms of features and performance.
All of the systems also have some quirks that are unique to that system.
Some systems include things that others sell as add on options. Some of these you may want to use, but others you won't.
My recommendation, and the only general recommendation I ever give about selecting a system, is to find a system that you are comfortable using, and buy that. In my experience, if you aren't comfortable using the system, you won't use it, no matter how many bells and whistles it has.
PaulIf i were to start with DCC, what manufacturer would be a good way to go, or another way to put it, the cheaper way to go.
Re:
Since I don't know all that much about the controller systems for DCC this is just a personal reflection...
When I buy a computer, I make sure there is room for upgrades and added equipment, like an empty place for an extra hardrive and CD-ROM, a slot for graphics-card and sound instead of built in, and if it's built in a way to override the bios settings.
Since DCC is basically a computer system, then I would get a basic setup/unit where I can at a later date easily update or upgrade parts. I don't know if that's possible, but that's what I would do.
Re:
johnmcc wrote:
Manufacturer of what? Locomotives w/ decoders installed, decoders, or control system?
For the first, you only have one choice currently, and that's Atlas. You can get Atlas locos with decoders installed for about $20 over the same loco without decoder. When you consider that purchasing the decoder yourself is going to cost you $15+, and that's for a wired decoder, plus you'll have to install it, cost wise the Atlas with decoder is the way to go. Of course, if they don't have what you want, then you can go with modern Katos, and spend 25-40 for a drop in (most will be at the lower end of the range), with similar cost ranges for the modest selection of PnP decoders available for some other locos. Unfortunately, loco wise, it seems as though Life-Like is slow to get onboard the DCC train.
As far as which manufacturer to go with on the decoders, that depends on the locos you get, whether you want to spend the money on PnP or save by going with wired, and their warranty. Digitrax, Lenz, NCE and TCS all have decent decoders near the same price points.
Lastly, there's the question of command station. Since I'm dealing with the same question myself, I'll offer my perspective:
Your best VALUE in the proven entry level systems is probably the Digitrax Zephyr, which you can score for between 140 and 160 on the 'Net. The MRC Prodigy Advance looks really good, but it isn't proven yet. Atlas Commander is also fairly low cost, and provides a migration path to the Lenz. NCE has no entry system, but they have a very nice throttle unit. Finally, there's the new Bachmann, which is very low cost, and may be a great way to get your feet wet in DCC. Limited in features, it truly is an entry level system, with both the simplicity and limitations that implies.
I am leaning towards the Zephyr (on entry level), although there's one thing holding me back... I think Digitrax is going to replace it soon with a newer, stronger, faster, etc, etc, entry level system. I've no reason to think this other than my general knowledge of product cycles and the like, but my gut is telling me this with certainty.
After I buy new tires for my car, register the motorcycle, catch up on the bills, get a couple of E-8s, have the 16k service done on the bike, then I'll get my DCC system, and be able to give y'all a "how I chose what I chose" rundown.If i were to start with DCC, what manufacturer would be a good way to go, or another way to put it, the cheaper way to go. thanks for all the input.
Re:
BikerDad wrote:
I'm in a daily conversation with Digitrax on some marketing type quesitons. Trying to get some loner items for doing reviews. I get zero feeling they are close to release on anything new. No specific word, but no, "we've got new things comming soon" kind of talk.I think Digitrax is going to replace it soon with a newer, stronger, faster, etc, etc, entry level system. I've no reason to think this other than my general knowledge of product cycles and the like, but my gut is telling me this with certainty.
Re:
ReptilianFeline wrote:
It's possible to do this, but, it ends up being more costly in the long run.
A couple of examples.
First, my own personal experience. I started out with an Atlas Commander when they were first released. Then added on an Atlas Hand Command, and a Lenz XPA for walkaround control, and, an LI100F for computer control. I quckly learned with the computer control that the commander didn't allow me to do what I wanted to do, so I upgraded the command station to a Lenz LZV100.
Now, none of the equipment I have is obsolete. I can still use it with the LZV100, but, I now have one hand held controller that only supports two digit addresses, and, a Commander that only works as a stationary throttle. For an overall expedeture that was lower, I coul d have purchased a Lenz SET-100, and added an LH90 hand held (and then I woul dhave had two plug in hand held controllers).
Incidentally, (and this is my second example) I should point out. With Lenz systems, it's actually cheaper to buy the SET-100 and add on an LH90 hand held than it is to purchase a SET-90 and add on an LH100. The two sets are identical other than the controllers (same goes for the SET-LI, in which you get the LI101F computer interface, which replaced the LI100F in the Lenz product line, instead of a hand held throttle.)
I know similar things happen with the Digitrax sets as well. Other manufacturer's have more limited product lines, at least as far as complete sets go, so it's harder to make these comparisons.
PaulSince DCC is basically a computer system, then I would get a basic setup/unit where I can at a later date easily update or upgrade parts. I don't know if that's possible, but that's what I would do.
Re:
johnmcc wrote:
OH, the Zephyr can be found for less than that, without going to E-bay.
BTW, did you actually check out any other systems? Did you have a chance to actually operate on any systems?
Minimally, You should put more research into this kind of a decision than just asking on a website and jumping at the first system someone suggests. You may find the system doesn't meet your needs, or isn't one you're comfortable using.
I'm not going to try to push you one way or another. That's NOT the right way to do things here, but I do suggest you do some more research.
Here's a good place to start:
http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm This is the DCC system comparison chart at Tony's Train Exchange.
I also suggest you download and read the manuals from the manufacturer's websites. Don't just look at the entry level sets either. Take a look at the higher end sets that you might want to upgrade to in the future. (If you're looking at the Atlas Commander, the upgrade path is through Lenz. The Commander is actually a Lenz product that is sold in North America by Atlas (elsewhere it is the Lenz Compact)).
Once you've narrowed your choices down to a few sets, find a local hobby shop, a fellow modeler, or a club that actually has the systems you're interested in, and actually try the things out. See if you can get the feel of operating the system without instruction
What I said earlier in this thread still holds true:
Just checked the Digitrax site, Zephyr is currently listed at $199. When I'm ready I'll check Ebay, maybe I can find one there to hold me over. If not, I'll have to fork over the ca$h.
Quote:
You might actually find that for not too much more money than you would spend on an "entry level" set (Zephyr or otherwise), you can get a more advanced set that you are both comfortable operating, and can grow into over time.
Paulif you aren't comfortable using the system, you won't use it, no matter how many bells and whistles it has.
Re:
ReptilianFeline wrote:
No, and I don't think it would help that much.
You can get an idea of how the physical interface works through the manuals. The real problem with the manuals, or a software simulation, is that you don't get a sense for how it actually feels in your hand.
The best way to try things out really is to find someone who has the system you're interested in, and ask them if you can try it out. If you have friends with the systems, or who are members of a club with the systems, that's an easy way to go try one out. Failing that, find a local hobby shop or train show dealer that have quite a few systems in stock. In most cases, they will let you try one out at the store before you buy it.
PaulWouldn't it be great if there were a place where you could do a testrun on different DCC systems before you decide what to get? Is there some kind of virtual DCC softwrae/program you can use to test different setups and versions?
Joined: 2003-11-23