progress & incline

Junior's calculations are accurate if you can squeeze 36" run between the bridge and station. 3% is a little steep but do-able. It will limit the length of train a locomotive can pull. For the 20" run you listed, a 1" rise in that distance is over 8% grade! That's logging railroad grade! Better to re-locate the station to get a longer run. Another possible solution is to LOWER the roadway passing under the bridge. Is it possible to cut a section out of the base to lower it? Since it's for vehicular traffic, a steep grade for the road won't make any difference. Then you could have a more gentle incline for the trains. One concern from viewing your construction pictures is the turnout located adjacent to the bridge. A turnout located so close to a curve AND so close to a grade can cause you problems! Lead trucks on larger locomotives might actually raise up off the track and derail. You might want to set up a temporary test track and test your largest locomotives on it. Hope this helps. Darrell, quiet...for now

Since you had progress as far along as you did, I didn't want to suggest putting a layer of blue or pink foam down on top of the base board. Having a foam surface to work on is great for those times when you need a little elevation but don't have the room. You just cut into the foam. Sort of "elevation by excavation"! If you think it wouldn't be too much work, you might consider a layer of foam. It won't add much weight to the layout and will expand the possibilities for vertical separation in your scenery. I think you'd like it. Darrell, quiet...for now

There's another good suggestion! If you start your incline further back, it would lessen the grade. The station can be raised up to the grade level. You might have to go back into the curves at the other end of the table to lessen the grade. Just remember to keep the station building level. Guess that's one of those "slap my forehead" suggestions! LOL I wouldn't go with a 5% grade, though. That's WAY too steep for any kind of operations. At that steepness, you might need two or three locos to pull one full-sized passenger car! Darrell, quiet...for now

hey all, i just got home and as i'm looking at the layout....simulatneously reading your suggestions..i figured i can start my incline further back into the curve as suggested....that would give me enough of the 36" junior figured into it. i might have to re-do that switch tho Darrell like you said. i'll incline the whole far curve (by the floor lamp). i can raise up the station too. that's just a paper mock-up, i did before the cork started... keep ya posted..thanks ! peace, phil

Okay, looking through your track plan, if you start the grade on the front of the layout just after the crossover on the right, you can continue the grade up through the station, peaking half way between the station and the bridge. The grade then drops down from the midpoint at the back all the way around the curves on the left and ends as the rails straighten out on the front of the layout. The future/proposed turnout for the shelf can be moved to the right or it could be located on the curve, or both, if you want a wye to turn trains or locos on. Putting in the grade for most of the tracks on the oval raises the back tracks up for better viewing AND it keeps all the turnouts on flat ground. What buildings do you have planned for all those sidings? There should be some streets leading to whatever buildings you put in place. Better to plan for them now rather than later. Looks like a fun layout. A little switching action and continuous action on the mainline. Or if you are REALLY ambitious, you could combine ALL the ideas in this thread. Put down a layer of foam. Raise the tracks on a slight incline past the station and bridge. Sink the roadway under the bridge for more clearance. Plan ahead for that wye in the lower left corner. You'd have a really nice layout with vertical separations both above AND below the level of the table! Awesome! But don't listen to me. It's your layout and you have to be happy with it and build it the way you want. Only you can decide how much re-work you want to do and only you can decide if all the extra work really would be worth the effort. If you keep re-thinking everything because of what someone else recommends, you may never finish the layout! Go for it! Darrell, quiet...for now

Here is a material safety data sheet for floral foam: http://www.fdionline.net/Files/MSDS/SO-OasisFloralFoam6-05-05.pdf Here is the msds for pink or blue foam: http://www.thermalfoams.com/downloads/Literature/EPS/EPS%20MSDS.pdf Although both have certain health hazards, it looks like the floral foam has more, and more seriousl, health risks. Pink and blue foam are inert materials, not likely to cause skin irritations. Dust from sanding can be inhaled and cause problems in the lungs, but it is not known to be a cancer-causing agent. Ingesting particles are not known to have any risk other than possible constipation. Hazards from breathing fumes from hot wire cutting are minimal. Floral foam has more serious risks. It contains formaldehye, a known cancer-causing agent. Inhaled dust has been shown to have cancer-causing consequences. Rubbing two pieces together will produce dust. Ingesting it can cause vomitting, nausea and irritation of the mouth. Contact with the skin can cause skin irritations. Breathing fumes from cutting with a hot wire is particularly hazardous. All in all, I think I'd rather stick with the pink and blue foam. Since you have the green floral foam, you may still want to use it. Do so with caution. Make sure you use a respirator and ventilation, whether hot wire cutting, blace cutting or sanding. Once the material is in place, make sure all exposed areas are thoroughly sealed. Since the cells of the foam are open, you may need to apply a thin coating of plaster to cover the holes, then apply paint to seal it. There are so many products outside the model railroading hobby that can be used in the hobby. Not all of them are without hazards. Please be careful with what you use for your layout. Remember, you will be spending a lot of time with it. It's supposed to be fun, not dangerous. I hope I didn't rain on your parade. Darrell, quiet...for now

1" rise in 20" is 5%. Of course, you have to allow for a transition to the grade at each end, which would make the maximum grade sgnificantly steeper.

Triplex, Yeah at the time I was just saying I only had 20" from bridge edge to station platform edge. 36" is the number Juinor came up with, which would be easier to work with...My question then was could I incorporate this 36" into a curve....so I'm gonna start it at the left side of the table to the right (side where station is located) What makes this so tight is that I'm trying to stick as close to the proto as I can. Of course I don't have as much land as Norfolk Southern/NJ Tranist have, only a 80X30 door here ! lol.... Peace, Phil

Phil, you're going to have to play around with WS products to get what you want. First, WS offers risers and inclines. Consider the risers to be elevated platforms, the same height from one end to the other. Inclines start out at 0 elevation and rise to their designed height of 4 or 4.5 inches in stages. They have riser kits for many elevations. WS also offers incline starter kits in 2, 3 & 4%. The 2% incline starter kit (ST1408, $5.98), combined with a 1/2" riser kit (ST1406, $5.98), would give you the parts you need to elevate the track to 1" and bring it back down to 0", but it will take 48" to do it. You will have a couple pieces of riser left over that you might be able to use somewhere else on the layout. Here is the website location: http://www.woodlandscenics.com/index.htm Click on "foam products" and look at the risers and inclines. They have good diagrams that will illustrate the process better than I can describe it. Although you are now out to 48", I think the WS products will give you what you need without compromising the operation of the trains. 2% isn't that bad of a grade. You just have to start your incline 12" further up the track. Going back to another suggestion to use pink or blue foam as a sub-base, you might want to consider that, even if it means pulling up whatever track you have already glued down. I mention this because with the foam sheet, you can easily carve out the street at a pretty sharp angle to get the street to pass under your track. The track itself would remain level - NO GRADE AT ALL! You are more likely to find a steep angle on a street than on a train track. Just a few more things for you to think about! We all agree that model railroading is fun, but no one every said it was going to be easy! LOL Darrell, quiet...for now

Phil, The "starter" kit is used to "start" the incline. You can continue the incline by adding risers under the starter incline pieces. See the diagrams on the WS website. Being nit-picky can be a good thing! It helps you focus on the details, and the details are what brings realism to layouts. Of course, artistic talent can be used also to define a scene minimally. It's a handy talent to have! Don't despair. All will work out well for you. Sometimes, as in every artistic endeavor, you have to back up a bit before you can go forward again. Darrell, quiet...for now

Darrell, After going back to the WS site and debating this I figured to just order the 2% incline set. I figured I can take 2 of the leftover pieces trace the grade and shave it down for the incline/decline back to ground level. I think I will raise up the station level and decline afterwards. So actually the entire right side of the layout would be the whole incline section, which is the way it is proto-wise. I live a block from this thing so it's not like it's not fresh in my mind ! Here's a link to the 'ol Erie trestle...Glad I could pick one up from Atlas! http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=302521 It's actually a deck girder but I don't really wanna go any higher ! And view down the tracks...the bridge is located where those 2 dark stubs are on either side after the brick building on the left http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=302534 Thanks peace, Phil

Oops! That diagram didn't turn out well! Just mentally put the / and \ over the ---'s. There, that should be as clear as mud! Darrell, hopeless and quiet...for now

I grew up in Dumont. Never lived in Rutherford, but dated a few young ladies from Rutherford. :twisted: :shock: Nice to revisit those memories. Darrell, quiet...for now