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bnsf6951
21st Mar 2013, 09:57 AM
i have a question about prototypical movements... is it prototypical to push 7-10 cars from the industry sidings back to the yard, about 7 prototypical miles..????? http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/all/modules/ckeditor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/whatchutalkingabout_smile.gif:confused:

vinny..aka..bnsf6951

Ridgeline
21st Mar 2013, 10:10 AM
I was watching trains go by the other day and I observed a single SD40-2 pushing 3 freight cars while pulling another 2, over the distance of a few miles...... Yes, the engine was in the middle!

I'm sure it's happened at some point in the past, and therefore, it's prototypical......... Would be a poor habit to develop though, especially in N scale....

I might suggests a siding or run-around track near the industries..... :thumbs-up:

Allen H.
21st Mar 2013, 10:21 AM
In some cases, the roads will use a "Pushing Platform" [aka a caboose] so the conductor has a place to stand other than hanging on the end of a car.

bnsf6951
21st Mar 2013, 10:52 AM
hello andrew
thanks for your input. here's my scenirio: 3 industries to switch. with 1 facing turnout & 2 opposing turnouts. i do have a siding & a run around. my objective is not to block the main for any amount of time. there are 7 cars at these industries that need to be picked up & 7 cars that just arrived to be spotted. 3 of these cars will go to & come from the facing turnout & the other 4 will go to the opposing turnouts. i have tried different ways of switching these industries & always have the same results, engine at the back of the train. my next option is to run the locos down the main ( about 1.5 scale miles) & switch it back to the siding, then i will be at the front of the train...the question i have for this is, is it prototypical for the locos to run light for those 1.5 miles ??? i am assuming the answer would be yes.

thanks again for you input & i would appreciate any more that you can give me
vinny..aka..bnsf6951

TwinDad
21st Mar 2013, 11:02 AM
pushing a 7 car train a few miles, sure. Happens all the time around here, with trains twice that size.

For a shove that long, it'd be nice for the conductor/brakeman to have a shoving platform or caboose at the far ("front") end of the train. And a radio.

It would not be unusual for them to move the train to where the locos could run around to the front, but for such a short run, I think they'd just shove them home. Especially if getting to the runaround cost them another 50% distance.

However, since this is a model, and you're likely more interested in generating some interesting moves than in minimizing your monthly Diesel fuel bill, feel free to run around the train. Or not. Or mix it up.

Allen H.
21st Mar 2013, 11:32 AM
Of course, depending on your track plan and space, you could always add a pair of turnouts within a longer siding, similar to this which would save you running clear to the other end:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q0ax41YvJVs/UUso-8DPeKI/AAAAAAAAC8c/fOppS9VUhnY/s800/short%2520crossover.JPG

bnsf6951
21st Mar 2013, 12:28 PM
hello allen
my track plan is similar to your first drawing with 2 exceptions: first, the main would be the bottom. & second, there is a second siding on the one that goes to the left. the crossover is oriented correctly.
i plan on doing a video ( maybe today) & post it on here..please watch it & give me your comments.

thanks again...
vinny..aka..bnsf6951

ChicagoNW
21st Mar 2013, 02:56 PM
Depending on your era the railroad might not use a full caboose. On many short runs with a job like that the railroads would use a transfer caboose or shack on a flat. I often saw these on the jobs in Burbank, IL just a hop and a skip from the Beltline Clearing yard.

As for placement it could appear next to the engine or behind the cars. At the point of the final backing move the shack would be at the end of the train with the conductor leaning on the handrail with the radio at his ear.

Many of the transfer cabooses were built by the road that used them. They would use a convenient frame and build a floor then add a box on top of it. Usually just big enough to store the various supplies needed by the conductor and/or brakeman. The Milwaukee Road use tender frames. Old cabeese made great fodder, with the body severely reduced. Some roads chopped up boxcars. I've even seen a modified container on a flat used this way

j edgar
21st Mar 2013, 06:09 PM
when i was a trainman for CSX in michigan i regulary worked a local..D708...this job "turned" at a siding named Fox about 9-10 miles from the last customer. Our option was to run to Fox (plus 18-20 miles and run around) or shove back to Elmdale siding about 3 miles...wind and rain and snow it didnt matter we would always shove back cuz it was quicker. Even on OT we would make that shove to save time.

Allen H.
27th Mar 2013, 09:39 AM
hello allen
my track plan is similar to your first drawing with 2 exceptions: first, the main would be the bottom. & second, there is a second siding on the one that goes to the left. the crossover is oriented correctly.
i plan on doing a video ( maybe today) & post it on here..please watch it & give me your comments.

thanks again...
vinny..aka..bnsf6951

Hey Vinney,

What did you come up with for a solution? Did you get a video shot and I missed it?
Just curiuos...

Stogie
27th Mar 2013, 09:48 AM
Here in town, CSX has an intermodal yard and about a half dozen customers who receive by rail. The rail customers are all within a mile of each other and CSX can be seen pushing a cut of a dozen or so cars around, but I believe they put the engine on the head end before taking the train the 18 miles or so down to Hagerstown. So yeah a loco may push the cars around without a caboose, but I cannot see a road pushing for more then a couple miles.

TwinDad
27th Mar 2013, 10:00 AM
I think one of the main factors is the comfort of the brakeman/conductor. SOMEBODY has to be at the "front" (in the direction of motion) of the train, with a radio, to be the eyes of the engineer. Without a caboose, that guy is hanging on the ladder of the last (first?) car on the train, with a radio.

For relatively short moves (a couple of miles) that's no big deal. For eighteen miles, or at higher speeds, that would be a rough ride, and potentially unsafe.

I wonder if the FRA has any rules/regs about this...

You can see the dude hanging on the boxcar in this video:

9EjJVy9FOMQ

Jugtown Modeler
27th Mar 2013, 10:09 AM
I think one of the main factors is the comfort of the brakeman/conductor. SOMEBODY has to be at the "front" (in the direction of motion) of the train, with a radio, to be the eyes of the engineer. Without a caboose, that guy is hanging on the ladder of the last (first?) car on the train, with a radio. For relatively short moves (a couple of miles) that's no big deal. For eighteen miles, or at higher speeds, that would be a rough ride, and potentially unsafe. I wonder if the FRA has any rules/regs about this... You can see the dude hanging on the boxcar in this video:

Nice weathering on those cars TD!

I never realized what a safety issue pushing a train is. Thanks for the posts.

bnsf6951
27th Mar 2013, 10:30 AM
good morning allen....yes i did do a video on my movements....you can view it at www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6961.i (http://www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6961.i) did post on here, but i think if you go to you tubr it will easy for you to find... i decided to go back along the main, back into the siding, couple up & pull the cars home...check it out i think it's about 10-15 minutes of switching the industries...leave a comment so i know you where there.
thanks for your interest !!!!:thumbs-up:

vinny...aka...bnsf6951

TwinDad
27th Mar 2013, 10:58 AM
Nice weathering on those cars TD!



Thanks. I worked really hard on those... :)

Allen H.
27th Mar 2013, 11:17 AM
good morning allen....yes i did do a video on my movements....you can view it at www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6961.i (http://www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6961.i) did post on here, but i think if you go to you tubr it will easy for you to find... i decided to go back along the main, back into the siding, couple up & pull the cars home...check it out i think it's about 10-15 minutes of switching the industries...leave a comment so i know you where there.
thanks for your interest !!!!:thumbs-up:

vinny...aka...bnsf6951

No luck Vinny, tried several options and I can't find it.

coffeeman
27th Mar 2013, 11:20 AM
It also happens up here often.

Brakeman rides the "front" hopper. This run goes through a lot unprotected crossings so its a relatively slow move. I doubt they enjoy it as much in the winter though.....

bnsf6951
27th Mar 2013, 11:31 AM
hello allen...my bad...i inadvertantly gave you the wrong addy..this one should be correct

www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6951 (http://www.youtube.com/user/bnsf6951)

once you are there, go to browse videos..left side of the page " switching n glendale" should be the second video. you can also go to my blog page...www.bnsf6951.blogspot.com. all my vids are there
thanks
vinny

bnsf6951
27th Mar 2013, 12:31 PM
hello allen...is your user name on you tube "bendtrack1"???

vinny

Allen H.
27th Mar 2013, 12:45 PM
Yep, actually bendtracker1