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Cornreaper
13th Jun 2013, 05:22 PM
For almost a decade, I've been planning to eventually model the Barrie Collingwood Railway once I had the room. BCRY is a single-locomotive road running on century-old track and only services about a half dozen industries in and around Barrie, Ontario. We'll probably be transitioning to a house within the year and this, combined with my recent renewed interest in the hobby, has got the juices flowing again for this project. The best part is I have wife-clearance to make an around-the-room shelf layout wherever we end up. I'm about to re-start my kitbashing project of converting a Lifelike GP18 into a phase III GP9 in an effort to recreate BCRY #1001 but I've also been thinking hard about the planning and designing of the layout itself.

The cornerstone of the layout would be the interchange yard where the line crosses the CPR mainline, the only source of BCRY's incoming traffic. As you can see from the Google Maps link, the yard is perfectly suited for a corner though some aggressive compression would be in order as I don't think I could justify 12' x 15' for just a yard even if I somehow had that kind of space. That aside, my question is this: How exactly would interchange traffic work in this yard? I'm assuming that the the CPR (north-south) local would have to pull off onto the nearest of the three sidings as it's a pretty busy mainline. After that, the loco would take a cut of cars and dump it onto the next siding. I think I have that all figured out, but what's the third track for? I was thinking it was for BCRY to spot cars to be picked up by CP, but looking closely at the track configuration, there's no practical runaround option for either railroad. Thoughts and opinions?

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Barrie+Collingwood+Railway+Yard,+Simcoe+Cou nty+Road+56,+Utopia,+ON&hl=en&ll=44.33183,-79.822969&spn=0.008196,0.021136&sll=44.331454,-79.827197&sspn=0.002049,0.005284&oq=barrie+collingwood+railway+yard&t=h&hq=Barrie+Collingwood+Railway+Yard,+Simcoe+County+ Road+56,&hnear=Utopia,+Simcoe+County,+Ontario&z=16

WP&P
13th Jun 2013, 06:37 PM
On the east-west track, to the east of the diamonds, there appears to be a short runaround. What I can't figure out is the necessity of the innermost interchange track (the curve with some tangents in it and a short spur at the east end). Best I can figure, that was actually there to serve an industry, and is not actually a yard track per se, but then I don't know what sort of industry that is. If CPR had the contract to serve that industry, they might have built this just as a lead that they own and operate independently of the short line. In practical terms, though, it can act like an oversize runaround.

Cornreaper
13th Jun 2013, 08:11 PM
I think the little spur is a team track for local farmers. As far as I know, this entire little yard was built specifically by CP for interchange with BCRY when it was founded in 1998. I really should go up there and stake it out, but they only run Monday/Wednesday/Friday and I have that pesky work thing. Then again, I have some vacation days to burn off....

Cornreaper
14th Jun 2013, 01:04 PM
I traced all the trackage in Photoshop then deleted the background to get a clearer look at the configuration. Though it seems simpler now, it still seems like an excessive yard for such a low-volume shortline. Either way, at roughly 2400' x 2100' (15'x13' in N) I'd probably have to try and compress it by a factor of maybe 40% to make it feasible for a spare room. I'd also have to seriously reduce the angle of the diamond. Again, I don't know when and where we're moving so I have no idea how much space I will or won't have. Just thinkin' at this point.

Operationally-speaking, is there more to this than CP dropping off a cut of cars and BCRY picking it up and delivering them in the same order? It seems to me that they'd be delivered in proper sequence so I don't know if #1001 would have all that much work to do in the yard. Then again, I guess different customers need their deliveries on different days so some reshuffling would be in order. Any experts on interchange ops?

ChicagoNW
14th Jun 2013, 01:56 PM
According to the way you've described the work of your little spin-off, it works like a roach motel. Is there a huge scrap company that slices up the cars and ships the metal to China?

kalbert
14th Jun 2013, 02:13 PM
That's a really neat area there. I think it would be very interesting to do, though I agree I don't think there would be alot of yardwork but there could be some. I'd think it would also compress very well into a modest sized corner module. Cars would be dropped off by CPR that could have destinations on either end of the BCRY wouldnt' they? It could be #1001's job to separate them into cuts headed each way, and also to assemble returning cars headed each way on the CPR and shove them back to the CPR side. #1001 might also be responsible for doing some road work in one direction or the other after separating the cars headed east, it works the west side of the line while another crew (possibly not modeled?) works the east side?

I think on the CPR side, they probably just drop off a cut on one of the sidings and pick up from the other. The BCRY probably does it's movements on the CPR side, then uses the short runaround on the BCRY side to get on the other side of the train to pull it west. Likewise when a BCRY train returns from the east I imagine it stops on the BCRY main, runs around itself, then backs into the CPR side. Just a guess though. It would certainly be worth an afternoon off of work to go check it out!

Cornreaper
14th Jun 2013, 03:55 PM
According to the way you've described the work of your little spin-off, it works like a roach motel. Is there a huge scrap company that slices up the cars and ships the metal to China?

Funnily enough, there USED to be a big scrap company that this line serviced, but they've since declined rail service.

Actually, a few other interesting industries along this line are no longer rail-served. The big Molson brewery was demolished and more significantly the entire line west of the yard was decommissioned a couple of years ago, taking a distillery with it. As it stands now I know there is a lumber yard and a chemical plant, and three or four other unknown industries which seem to be primarily using covered hoppers and standard box cars.

It almost seems like it's a shortline not worth the effort of modelling, but something about it calls to me. I love the paint scheme on the locomotive, I love the old decrepit track with a 10 mph speed limit and I love the fact that a city which was once a fairly significant railway hub scraped up the dough to buy the abandoned CN line and keep the trains rolling.

ChicagoNW
14th Jun 2013, 04:26 PM
It almost seems like it's a shortline not worth the effort of modelling, but something about it calls to me. I love the paint scheme on the locomotive, I love the old decrepit track with a 10 mph speed limit and I love the fact that a city which was once a fairly significant railway hub scraped up the dough to buy the abandoned CN line and keep the trains rolling.

That's the exact reason to build the little line. As a small branchline, you can capture the majority of it as opposed to the big two. But given the power of creative license you can rebuild those lost industries.

kalbert
14th Jun 2013, 04:37 PM
It almost seems like it's a shortline not worth the effort of modelling, but something about it calls to me. I love the paint scheme on the locomotive, I love the old decrepit track with a 10 mph speed limit and I love the fact that a city which was once a fairly significant railway hub scraped up the dough to buy the abandoned CN line and keep the trains rolling.

Those are fantastic reasons to model it! Operationally, probably not too much excitement, but those operations "scale down" nicely to a home layout. Not to mention your interest in the history of the line, the neat configuration of the interchange, and the possibility of some modeler's license to reconstitute the missing industries from the area. All that adds up to a fantastic foundation for a model railroad!

Cornreaper
14th Jun 2013, 05:25 PM
This is all true...I just have much, MUCH more research to do. I guess the minimal traffic would also mean I wouldn't have to invest in so much rolling stock. To keep it interesting I'd need maybe 25-30 freight cars. Some of you out there have 25-30 times that amount...which just blows my mind.

But again, this is all future me's problem. For the time being I'm holed up in my little condo with my 3.4 square foot shelf switcher and that's keeping me plenty busy.

OTFan
14th Jun 2013, 05:38 PM
I also think the branch line has interesting possibilities, FWIW. However, you also mentioned "around the room" in your first post, so if you think the BCRY itself wont be enough to keep you interested why not run a CP main line around the room with the BCRY in one corner? You could model both sides of the interchange. You could have as many (or as few) industries served by the CP line as you want, maybe even a small yard to give you more switching.

WP&P
14th Jun 2013, 05:52 PM
I agree that making the CP a functional interchange, with its own loop of track to and from staging, should be done if you can. That way when you start accumulating rolling stock the way a dragon hordes gold, you can justify it as you are adding variety to the Class 1 consists. When the urge comes on, to just do railfanning rather than 10 mph operation, you can set a CP train in orbit and chill out with your Wendy's Frosty or whatever kind of beverage you go for.

Do they have Wendy's in Toronto? Apparently we don't have Frosties down here in Ohio... I went there for lunch today, all eager for a chocolate Frosty in the middle of the hot day, but nope they were out of chocolate! Okay, so they had vanilla, but that's just not the same. What does all of this have to do with interchange?!? :-/

code40
14th Jun 2013, 06:55 PM
Those are fantastic reasons to model it! Operationally, probably not too much excitement, but those operations "scale down" nicely to a home layout. Not to mention your interest in the history of the line, the neat configuration of the interchange, and the possibility of some modeler's license to reconstitute the missing industries from the area. All that adds up to a fantastic foundation for a model railroad!

All good reasons, I agree - but the best (in my opinion) is the fact that the yard is in a place called 'Utopia'. :)

I briefly considered basing my layout on CN's Meaford Subdivision (which I thought had long been abandoned - I didn't realize it was still running as a modern day shortline) just to be able to include that station.

I'm not surprised at the 10 mph speed limit - supposedly some of the rail is more than 150 years old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG9Yw80ngzY

OTFan
14th Jun 2013, 07:11 PM
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but if you are considering doing a branch line check out Michael Whiteman's layout. He has a thread here with pictures of the finished layout:

http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?30538-The-Branch-Line-Local

It's "just" a branch line with a couple of industries, but its a great layout

pbender
14th Jun 2013, 07:19 PM
It almost seems like it's a shortline not worth the effort of modelling, but something about it calls to me. I love the paint scheme on the locomotive, I love the old decrepit track with a 10 mph speed limit and I love the fact that a city which was once a fairly significant railway hub scraped up the dough to buy the abandoned CN line and keep the trains rolling.

Here's something to think about... You could build this as a Free-moN module. The CP mainline would be the Free-moN mainline and the short line would work just as it does on the prototype.

At home, the short lie is a switching layout by itself with the interchange yard acting as staging.

Oh, and I agree, model some of the former industries.

Paul

ChicagoNW
14th Jun 2013, 11:57 PM
I like the branch line around the room concept.

The CP line can use emmenent domain and build a peninsula into the room. The bigger corp, has the government backing, so it should have no problem annexing the space.

MuddyCreek
15th Jun 2013, 12:07 AM
The CP line can use emmenent domain and build a peninsula into the room. The bigger corp, has the government backing, so it should have no problem annexing the space.

The CP never went up against my ex-wife.

Wayne

Michael Whiteman
15th Jun 2013, 03:21 AM
I like this concept a lot. I mulled over ideas and drew track plans for a year before we moved so I know what you're going through. I too have 25 cars of which only 10 at a time are on the layout. The yard here is plenty big enough for what you'll be doing. Keeping this plan small and simple is what will make it a great railroad. Definitely use this yard as a corner module. You might end up making the vertical main line a little more parallel with the wall. For sure model all the old customers along the line. I can't wait till you find out exactly what the shape of the railroad room will look like. It'll be fun watching you design this one.

pwh70
15th Jun 2013, 06:31 AM
The CP never went up against my ex-wife.

Wayne

Wasn't she your wife in post #1? That was 4 days ago.... this layout sounds like fun and all, but geez...
At least ask if she'll let you do the around-the-room first.

MuddyCreek
15th Jun 2013, 09:16 AM
Wasn't she your wife in post #1? That was 4 days ago..

No, Post 1 wasn't mine. Sounds like this project has got wife-approvals.

Wayne

Cornreaper
15th Jun 2013, 03:09 PM
I think I'm married to the idea of doing just the shortline. The CPR main doesn't really interest me a whole lot, especially in that area where there are virtually no industries which it serves. Besides, the BCRY route layout is actually remarkably conducive to an around-the-room layout. Here's an older drawing of the route I found online with some of the old customers. It's nowhere near to scale, but is a good basic representation. The interchange yard is located just beyond the west end of the diagram.

As for modelling the older industries, I have conflicting thoughts. On one hand, it would certainly increase the operational interest...but I'm kind of keen on modelling the present day configuration, as there is now a GO Transit station where the little yard at the northern end is. A shiney new MP40 with a string of bi-levels would look pretty cool parked at the platform as #1001 trundles by with its rusty consist. Of course, "present-day" is kind of a meaningless concept in modelling, as once it's built it's instantly locked into the past anyway. The other issue is most of those out-of-service industries lie on what would have to be peninsulas...something which I DON'T have clearance for. But again, who knows what kind of space I'll get. For better or worse, the current configuration of the railway is actually ideal.

And I really, REALLY like Michael Whiteman's railroad....it is actually very inspirational for this project.

Cornreaper
18th Jun 2013, 10:08 PM
Here's a rough mockup using AnyRail. As you can see it's very compressed, fitting into 7' x 8'. The yard tracks would hold maybe 6-8 modern cars, which I'd imagine would be plenty for this railroad. I've reduced the diamond angle to 80 degrees and all turnouts are #6. Speaking of turnouts, I'm giving serious consideration to going the Fast Tracks hand-built route. The initial cost is high, but each turnout would get cheaper. This yard's 13 turnouts would come in at around $18 each, but it would become very economical by the time I got to the 30 or so that this full layout would probably require. Also, they would look pretty sweet with some code 40 rail.

I'm getting some pretty dirty looks right now for all this future railroad planning, mostly due to the fact that I should be focusing my efforts on the impending kitchen reno. But on the bright side, the sooner we do it the sooner we can sell and move into whatever house will be home to the BCRY...

kalbert
19th Jun 2013, 11:43 AM
That looks pretty good! Something to think about is the mainline track length on each main line. There's not very much space on the mainline past the turnout for the sidings. If you're not planning to make this a corner piece to a sectional layout, you may want to consider mounting a temporary extension on the end when you are operating so there is enough room for a loco and a couple cars past the end.

Also... If you're really considering scratch building your own turnouts, the Fast Tracks jigs are the Cadillac, but you can achieve really good results without them too. A couple years ago there was a superb six or seven page article in Model Railroader about building turnouts with only common hand tools. Even if you do decide to go the Fast Tracks route, I highly recommend picking up a copy of the Nov. 2011 MR for that article, it's good info no matter what.

46886

Cornreaper
19th Jun 2013, 12:58 PM
I'll definitely check out that article. I'm pretty ok with the concept of not shelling out $200 for a jig!

As for the extensions, this will be part of a larger layout so the track will continue both south and east. That said, it will probably live as a standalone module for a while at first so the removable extensions would be a fine interim solution.

Cornreaper
19th Jun 2013, 11:49 PM
November 2011 issue bought in digital form...give it up for Zinio! Building turnouts actually looks like something I could attempt. I was also pleasantly surprised to see that the article was written by Lance Mindheim, who's something of a messiah to me right now. Thanks again, kalbert!

jpwisc
20th Jun 2013, 09:19 AM
...Of course, "present-day" is kind of a meaningless concept in modelling, as once it's built it's instantly locked into the past anyway...

Not true. I update things on my layout as the real world changes. I have renumbered custom engines because the prototype did it. If you want to stay modern, it takes a little work, but it is worth it. For a great example of a 'modern' railroad, check out Eric Brooman's Utah Belt. I think he has kept it up to date for more than 20 years.

Cornreaper
20th Jun 2013, 12:07 PM
For a great example of a 'modern' railroad, check out Eric Brooman's Utah Belt. I think he has kept it up to date for more than 20 years.

Funny you mention that, there's an article about this very railroad in the same MR as the turnout building article!

SKMoss
20th Jun 2013, 01:13 PM
With the new shed and layout plan in progress I start to think about the track. New club I joined has FastTrack jigs. But not all that I would like to have.

With a lot of turn outs in a pretty small area, I'd like to do some combo cross overs. The club does not have those jigs and buying them from FastTracks is really expensive. (eg more than the cost of the turn outs I would make from them)

Absent being able to get my hands on the article mentioned above, anyone have other resources for scratch building. The club probably has it, in it's library, but I won't be able to check that out until Sunday.

code40
20th Jun 2013, 03:15 PM
With the new shed and layout plan in progress I start to think about the track. New club I joined has FastTrack jigs. But not all that I would like to have.

With a lot of turn outs in a pretty small area, I'd like to do some combo cross overs. The club does not have those jigs and buying them from FastTracks is really expensive. (eg more than the cost of the turn outs I would make from them)

Absent being able to get my hands on the article mentioned above, anyone have other resources for scratch building. The club probably has it, in it's library, but I won't be able to check that out until Sunday.

pender has some tutorials right here on nscale.net: http://www.nscale.net/forums/content.php?162-Getting-Started-with-hand-laid-track-Part-3-Laying-Rail not to mention a double-slip: http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?29193-A-1-9-code-40-double-slip, and then there's my own thread: http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?19021-Handlaid-track-building-a-crossing (http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?19021-Handlaid-track-building-a-crossing&highlight=handlaid+crossing)

Browse through the trackage (http://www.nscale.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?89-Trackage) forum - there's a number of articles there on handlaid track, many of them discuss alternatives to jigs. And then start your own thread and ask questions! You'll probably get more answers than you have time to read :)

pbender
21st Jun 2013, 11:06 AM
pender has some tutorials right here on nscale.net: http://www.nscale.net/forums/content.php?162-Getting-Started-with-hand-laid-track-Part-3-Laying-Rail not to mention a double-slip: http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?29193-A-1-9-code-40-double-slip, and then there's my own thread: http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?19021-Handlaid-track-building-a-crossing (http://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?19021-Handlaid-track-building-a-crossing&highlight=handlaid+crossing)


Just to clarify, the first article is mine. The second is from the other Paul Bender on this site.

Paul