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Thread: Power Supply for 6 MRC Cab Control 55's?

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    Default Power Supply for 6 MRC Cab Control 55's?

    I am building a 3' x 8' DC layout and realized to optimize the layout I need at least 5-6 zones plus a couple of sidings / subzones that I can turn on and off.

    I purchased an MRC Tech 4 260 [realized I have a 260 not a 220] and an MRC Tech 4 280 dual cab and have been having a great deal of fun running multiple trains on the portions of the layout I have already built. However, I am faced with either buying another 1-2 transformers (2x 220's/260's or another 280) or buying 4-6 cab controllers (MRC Cab Controller 55) and moving the 260/280 to other layouts.

    My question is -- is there any difference (user-experience-wise) in using 6 MRC 55's instead of multiple MRC 220's / 260's / 280's. I do occasionally like the momentum control as well as the power on the 260 (I did not realize how much less the max VA was for the 280 per cab). However, I also like the compactness and organization of having 6 MRC 55's to control the whole layout.

    Finally, what would you guys recommend as a power supply to run 6x MRC 55 Cab Controllers (I am pretty frugal having purchased the 260 for $10 and the 280 for $19)?
    Last edited by Mac; 31st Jul 2016 at 09:01 PM.

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    deleted... Could not get user tag to work when I edited...
    Last edited by Mac; 28th Jul 2016 at 06:57 PM.

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    I noticed in reading @Metrolink MRC 3000 thread that he used wall warts to power those cab controllers.

    I assume I could do the same here but also wonder about an option for a single transformer that would provide enough VA to run 5-6 MRC 55's (honestly I don't fully understand / appreciate quite how voltage and amps split across parallel circuits).

    I was also wondering what would happen if you connect a second cab controller to a variable volt output on the MRC 260 for example (i.e., could you use an MRC 55 cab controller as a 'dimmer switch' to slow down a sub-section of track).
    Last edited by Mac; 31st Jul 2016 at 09:01 PM.

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    For example, could I use this power supply to support 6 MRC 55 Cab Controllers:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-110V-220V...7/301933303086

    This would seem like it would provide regulated 12v w/ 2.1 amps per cab (around 25VA per cab). As far as I can tell having more amps does not hurt the locomotives (just provides the ability to run more locomotives). However, I am still a bit ignorant when it comes to electrical systems (I guess the biggest risk of this larger power supply is that it will give you much more of a shock -- is that true? -- would it be enough to shock you from touching the tracks -- for example, if just one cab was on?).

    This one seems like another option that assures a maximum of 1.1 amps per channel (may reduce the small likelihood that a Loco could be damaged if there was an engine problem).
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/9CH-DC12V-10...-/201274019804
    Last edited by Mac; 28th Jul 2016 at 10:41 PM.

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    Howdy.

    In reading over your descriptions of setting up a DC block control system, I am wondering if you're headed down the right path.

    You say that you need to have your layout blocked out to 6 - 8 individual blocks. Just so you know, that does not mean you need 6-8 controllers.

    In DC block control, it's a general rule that you only need 1 'Cab' per operator you expect to have.

    instead of having 1 Controller per block, you could/should route the output of a controller to a specific block by using toggle switches or rotary switches.

    Check out this diagram for using 2 cabs for controlling 5 blocks:

    http://www.modeltrainbuilder.com/images/blockcab.jpg

    To up the number of cabs, you'll probably have to use multi position Rotary switches instead of the DPDT toggles shown in the diagram.
    Last edited by Claymore1977; 29th Jul 2016 at 11:05 AM.
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    Thanks @Claymore1977 -- you may very well be correct (i.e., I could be headed down the wrong path). I had contemplated posting a layout to get feedback but realized I probably need to learn via my own mistakes at this point (i.e., I will likely go down the evolutionary path of appreciating operations more by placing greater focus on industries and modeling and less on lots of track w/ multiple loops).

    Anyway, below is my rough plan for the layout with CAB's labeled. Just to clarify -- I am planning to dedicate Cab Controller 55's to each block so that I don't need to mess with running multiple blocks with multiple controllers and switching things around a lot. In a few spots (like sidings and staging) I will likely use DPDT switches to turn off / change controls (between the yard and the main loops) so that trains / switchers can readily cross between relevant zones when / as needed without changing controllers / settings.

    McNamee 8' x 3' layout.jpg

    I currently have the outer 11"r loops and yard made (both wound up a bit different than the plan) and have been having fun separately controlling the speed on the inner and outer loop to keep slow and fast locos from crashing into each other. I contemplated using the same CAB for the inner and outer 9.5"r over-under sections but it would be nice to have completely separate controls to run these trains at different speeds or in different directions. In addition, I also thought about running the yard on the same circuit as some of the main loops but think it would be nice to run 3 or 4 trains on the main loops while using a switcher to arrange rolling stock in the yard and on the sidings / staging areas. I could also certainly control the turntable on the same circuit as the yard but the price for 6 cab controllers was very little more than 5.

    Finally, I am thinking about using the DPDT switches to change between the MRC Cab Controller 55's and my MRC 260 in each circuit if slow speed performance is not as good with the 55's as the 260 (part of what motivated this post was uncertainty about the 55's with pulse etc...).

    Sorry for long answer...
    Last edited by Mac; 31st Jul 2016 at 09:02 PM.

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    Seems that the DC forums are less frequented than others...

    Anyway, I wound up purchasing the 6 MRC Cab 55's as well as this power supply: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141886660896 (I liked the safety features like no-blow fuses as well as the fact that it was turnkey and only $25 w/ free shipping). It is 12v DC w/ 10 amps and has 9 channels. I am not sure if the fuses are 1 or 2 amps but ideally I will have 1.5 to 2 amps per channel since I am only using 6 channels - worst case I will have 1.1 amps per channel which is still more than each CAB in my MRC 280. At $25 I did not want to worry too much about it.

    Anyway, $60 for the 6x MRC 55's with shipping and $25 for the power supply and I think at $85 for 6 separate controllers w/ power this is a bit of a bargain. I will let you guys know how everything works (particularly about low speed performance w/ the MRC 55's as well as wiring to swap the 55's w/ my MRC 260 on some/all blocks if needed).
    .

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    Typical DC block control lets you control any given block from any cab rather than assigning one cab per block. MOST of your layout could be controlled quite effectively with only two cabs using DPDT switches to select which cab controls the block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNamee View Post
    Anyway, I wound up purchasing the 6 MRC Cab 55's as well as this power supply: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141886660896 (I liked the safety features like no-blow fuses as well as the fact that it was turnkey and only $25 w/ free shipping).
    Nice find! Post some photos when you have all your cabs installed!

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    railways by Kato Unitrack + Unitram | electric light-rail by Tomix | construction by Kato Diotown & Tomytec Co., Ltd. | vehicles by Busch GmbH & Co. KG
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    Thanks @Metrolink - I will post pics / videos.

    My MRC Cab Controller 55's came. Anyway, NIB with directions and 5-year warranty card - ha!

    Looks like these have a max rating of 1 amp so I should be fine with 1 amp fuses or [hopefully ] with 1.1 amp per channel / cab / block (guess I can forget about 2 amps per block).

    Anyway, the copper / bronze look is pretty retro...

    20160801_192645_resized.jpg
    Last edited by Mac; 2nd Aug 2016 at 04:55 AM.

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    Wow! Isn't it amazing that we're still able to buy new-in-the-box items that were released several decades ago?!?!?! All four of my eBay-bought Tech II 3000GS controllers were NIB also. Those are actually going to look pretty slick all lined up—nice and very compact, too! Retro is cool, but brand-new retro is even better. Love those MRC throttle knobs. Analog FTW! Looks cool, McN!

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    I started testing out the MRC 55's and verified details on the voltage drop that occurs in the MRC 55: 12v input = 10v output max; 14v input = 12v output max. I hope the power supply I got is ok -- should be since my locos run fast enough at 10v. (FYI - planning to use those little voltage display boards in the picture as a digital displays for the output voltage going to each cab / block -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/151686072145)

    20160802_175648_resized.jpg

    I also confirmed that there does not seem to be a problem hooking these up to variable DC (I hooked this one up to my MRC 260 to test the input and output voltage. This means that you could use a 55 as a 'dimmer switch' to control an extra cab even if your controller does not have a fixed dc voltage output (i.e., you could use a 55 instead of a DPDT switch to control voltage to something like a siding -- assumes that the sub-zone always needs less voltage than the main cab). Given that these are only a few dollars more than a DPDT switch this does not seem like a bad option in some situations although that is not what I have planned.

    I will wait till my power supply arrives to do more testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhampton View Post
    Typical DC block control lets you control any given block from any cab rather than assigning one cab per block. MOST of your layout could be controlled quite effectively with only two cabs using DPDT switches to select which cab controls the block.
    Mike -- thanks for this observation which confirms what others have said. I can certainly appreciate how to wire the layout this way but it seems to give far less control and create undue complexity in setting up the layout. I wonder why this is the standard approach when it comes to dc operations? I can imagine that it is either the result of transformers being expensive in the past and/or the result of multiple operators working together on larger layouts and taking the role of conductors of individual trains (I am sure there are other reasons that I don't appreciate yet as well).

    Given how cheap old new-stock transformers and cab controllers are the first reason has been virtually eliminated.

    As for the second reason -- In my case I don't plan on running this layout with the assistance of others and I am planning to run a number of trains rather than engaging in complex operations aside from my yard and turntable (at least in this first layout).

    Maybe I have a bit of ADD or maybe I am naive about what will be really fun (or maybe I will wind up liking simply assembling trains and moving them to sidings and staging areas so they can be swapped out with other trains on the main runs while a number of other trains run around in patterns at all different speeds).

    It seems that having 6 different controllers linked to specific blocks will bring a DC operations closer to DCC (although obviously two trains in the same block cannot be controlled separately).

    Actually -- the most likely reason that my current plan for running a bunch of trains at the same time will not work is the frequency that trains currently derail on my layout (I need to order a standards gauge to check wheel spacing and need to work on a few of my switches a bit) ;-)

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    Those MRC 55 cases would look super-cool if you had them black-anodized with panel-mounted green LED meters above each one (are they steel or aluminum?). It would be very slick and modern-looking.

    Quote Originally Posted by McNamee View Post
    FYI - planning to use those little voltage display boards in the picture as a digital displays for the output voltage going to each cab / block
    Those are cool! Though, I wish they came with bezels to match. I would like to install LED ammeters and voltmeters also someday to accompany my 3000GS controllers. But your MRC 55s will have more of a panel-mount look (which I like), whereas my 3000GS units will still look like "things on top of a shelf" no matter what I do. I would really like to get some of those analog LEDs (you know, like segmented-VU meters), like the Tomix controllers have already built-in (below). If I'm going to stay DC, I think that'll be a fun project to make a fancy all-analog control panel. Kind of like a utility company control panel.


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    railways by Kato Unitrack + Unitram | electric light-rail by Tomix | construction by Kato Diotown & Tomytec Co., Ltd. | vehicles by Busch GmbH & Co. KG
    ambient sound design by Fantasonics | digital command control by Dynamis Ultima | layout automation by RailController

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    @Metrolink -- I do think it is so interesting that the Japanese prefer those larger analog control panels with realistic train controllers (at least that is what I read). Those controllers are cool looking (I almost bid on one I saw online).

    I have not really figured out what my control panel will look like. I thought about the style with the layout diagram with toggles and LEDs in the respective parts of the diagram. Something like this or this or this... Not sure if it would look better to line up the 55's along the bottom/top or put them in the respective parts of the layout diagram. I could certainly mount them behind the layout and then could put a blank black faceplate on them with the voltage LED indicator above.

    With the low cost of electronics these days it is incredible all the things that we can custom-build -- once I figure this all out I am hoping to teach my young sons about electrical systems and electronics (w/ Arduino controls etc...) -- also they need to get a little older (4yrs and 18 months now).

    I read a number of recommendations for MRC 7000 transformers with sound and was thinking that it might be feasible to build something similar by measuring the voltage being output by a transformer and then feeding that through an Arduino control system to some type of audio player (maybe selecting MP3s of faster or slower running locos based on voltage)... Have not figured out how this will work but something like this should be feasible and more customizable than the MRC 7000 is.
    Last edited by Mac; 2nd Aug 2016 at 09:38 PM.

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    McN: I haven't heard any of the old MRC sound systems, but if you're interested in sound, as many here already know, I'm a huge Kato Soundbox fan. Not cheap at $209.99, but I think it's way worth it for DC-layouts (it's only for analog layouts). Here's post I wrote on another forum, but still applicable here:

    I happen to keep all of my old stereo gear, even gear that's "obsolete" (and by obsolete, I simply mean it doesn't have any HDMI I/O). If you have an old stereo amp laying around, plugging this thing in sounds amazing. Even crummy computer speakers are an improvement over the Soundbox' built-in speaker. But if you have an amp of any quality, and any kind of speakers, you'll be off to the races. Buy a cheap ≈$100 or less powered sub-woofer, and this thing produces an earth-shaking (literally!), thundering rumble.



    Its only downside is that there isn't much sound variation at constant-throttle, but there's an "over-rev" button where you can manually rev-up or down. At idle, there's some variation programmed in, so it's even fun to listen to at idle. There's a bell, and a choice of three air horns, plus braking, uncoupling, etc. The sound fidelity is incredible through an external amp—the prime-mover specific SoundTraxx cards have extremely high-quality recordings and sound really, really good. Extra cards are only $22.99.

    The Soundbox comes with a 1st-gen diesel card, but Kato just released two new diesel sound cards. I like to MU the crap outta my GP35s because the short engines look cool on an N-scale layout, so the new 1st-gen EMD diesel card with turbo is perfect for those. The Soundbox was one of my first purchases for my layout, and now I can't imagine running my trains without it!

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    railways by Kato Unitrack + Unitram | electric light-rail by Tomix | construction by Kato Diotown & Tomytec Co., Ltd. | vehicles by Busch GmbH & Co. KG
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    @Metrolink - I was reading about the Kato Soundbox so really appreciate the recommendation.

    I wonder how the Kato (and previously the MRC 7000) modifies the sound based on the locomotives speed / effort (or how it 'revs the engine' based on a button push). Does it look at the amps and voltage being fed to the track (given that this is DC I am not sure what else you could look at). I also wonder how it modifies the audio to reflect a faster or slower moving (or straining) train -- does it change audio files, does it speed up / slow down the audio file, or what. Everything else like playing a bell or horn seems pretty easy to implement. I am fairly naive when it comes to audio and have not looked into this yet. I planned on making a new thread to try to ask folks if they had any insights into how the device might work.

    I am hoping building something like this with Arduino would be a fun electronics project down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNamee View Post
    ...I wonder why this is the standard approach when it comes to dc operations? I can imagine that it is either the result of transformers being expensive in the past and/or the result of multiple operators working together on larger layouts and taking the role of conductors of individual trains...
    I do think that good quality controllers were more expensive in the past, but I think your second reason is even more applicable. Imagine following your train around a large layout using your block control method (which is used by some, just not near as many as the other method). Every time you approach a new block you would have to adjust the throttle for that block to match the block you are leaving. With the usual method, you just through a switch and assign the block to your throttle. Also, with your method when you cross a block boundary you are shorting two controllers together, which really isn't good for them if you don't have them perfectly matched.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNamee View Post
    I wonder how the Kato (and previously the MRC 7000) modifies the sound based on the locomotives speed / effort (or how it 'revs the engine' based on a button push).
    The Kato Soundbox is able to read back-EMF to modulate its sound output (e.g., if going up a grade, the engine sound revs-up, if going down a grade, it revs-down). But I'm unsure if this only works when connected to a Kato controller or not. I just re-installed my Unitrack layout and just plugged my Soundbox back in (I was working on some scenery) so that I could try out my new turbocharged GP35 soundcard (boy, does that thing "spin-up!").

    I'll have to do another test to see if the back-EMF is in fact working with the MRC 3000GS controller also. You can manually initiate a rev-up or rev-down—it's a seamless audio transition. The sounds are well-engineered and sound very much like a real train. Again, the only downside is that the sound doesn't vary much at constant-throttle.

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    railways by Kato Unitrack + Unitram | electric light-rail by Tomix | construction by Kato Diotown & Tomytec Co., Ltd. | vehicles by Busch GmbH & Co. KG
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    Ok well I got my power supply (actually came a week or so ago but I was out of town) and I hooked up 3 of the cab controllers to the cabs I had setup on my test track. Seems to work well -- the 10 or so volts runs the locomotives I tested quite well (I tested some of my faster as well as slower locomotives). I did not calculate scale speed so the slower locomotives might be slower than 60 or 70mph but they run fast enough for my purposes I think. The power supply is nice and small so I think I can mount it in a drawer under or behind my control panel or something which would be convenient.

    20160815_180318_resized_2.jpg 20160815_180307_resized_3.jpg

    I also hooked up my voltmeters to the cab controllers and had a couple of strange results. First I had a voltage between .7v and 1.5v when the cab control 55 was turned off completely (or when polarity was the opposite of what the voltmeter wanted) and second the volt reading was actually higher when a locomotive was on that section of track (maybe I wired the voltmeters wrong since I did not have the schematics in front of me - any other explanations besides cheap voltmeters?).

    I also blew a fuse in the power supply when a train crossed two cabs that were accidentally set in opposite directions / polarities (oops -- at least that is what I think happened -- but thought these were no-blow fuses). At least I know the short protection works and I guess I need to buy a bunch of fuses (and complain to the seller of the Power Supply).

    I am still working on crates, saw-horses, and cardboard boxes in a second floor apartment I am supposed to be renovating so no beautiful control panels for a while yet.
    Last edited by Mac; 15th Aug 2016 at 09:25 PM.

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