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Thread: Model Drought

  1. #21
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    Yes i agree Allen , the China situation was unfortunate . It is old news now , we need to move on . It didnt cost any of us any money , unless your a dealer or hobby shop owner . But it cost the companies involved a lot of money . I doubt that they weren't very happy they lost money on it . For them its a business , for most of us , it's a hobby .

    Intermountain has the no risk cancellation policy , how does that put anyone on the hook for something ? I would never pay for a preorder , as i know many of them get canceled due to lack of interest . Why would they produce something that has a small interest in it ? I can understand a company not wanting to stick their neck out only to have it chopped off . Do that too many times and your doors close for good .

    As far as things not getting produced on a expected release date , thats not always under their control .

    We need to face the fact , that these products are and will be for the foreseeable future , produced in China . Please dont tell me they can be produced in North America at the same price , i wont belive you .
    And do you want to wait for years with no product for them to set up and train staff to make the items in North America , only to be higher priced . Yes Micro Trains does build in america , but no where near the scale of product that Atlas or intermountain or others do , and they do multi scales , not just N . The big companies i think are not willing to stick their necks out on trying to set up shop in North America , to produce something more expensive , and layout all the money to make molds ect , that they already have in China . Its just the way it is . Im sorry i get tired of the complaining about Pre orders and cancellations , its how this hobby operates . If i couldnt deal with that , i should change my hobby , because it would frustrate me , and thats not what i want out of any hobby .

    Just my opinion

    Steve

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  3. #22
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    I've never understood the rant about "my preorder didn't get made, so I'll never preorder again". If things get produced based on preorders, how does that help?

    -Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookshow View Post
    I've never understood the rant about "my preorder didn't get made, so I'll never preorder again". If things get produced based on preorders, how does that help?

    -Mark
    I agree. I'm glad IM went to the new system showing the process on their website. I know they have historically been very slow, but they are honest about the impact of preorders. I watched this with their new 2 Bay hopper run. China slowdown aside, you got to see road names that didn't get enough preorders get dropped. The ones that got enough pre-orders move into production. They even responded to emails during the tooling move, and hopefully we see an upgrade (body mount couplers might be happening).

    I had a friend complain about one of the roads that got dropped. I asked him if he ordered, guess what... he didn't. I like pre-ordering. It doesn't cost me anything.
    Karl

    CEO of the Skally Line, an Eastern MN Shortline

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  7. #24
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    I pre-ordered 42 of those IM SF Ice Reefers when they were announced over 2 years ago. They were supposed to be released 3rd QTR of last year. IM is telling my LHS who I pre-ordered them through that it will be at least 4th QTR of next year before they are produced. I gave my word to my LHS that I would buy those cars and he ordered them. And I will not leave him hanging because IM can't produce something on time. So yes I am on the hook for them, I gave my word.

    And yes I am very much disappointed in Atlas and Intermountain. They choose to go to China, they choose to use the same factory as did a number of other manufacturers, and as a result when their single point of failure in their production chain failed they screwed over a lot of their customers who ordered things in good faith thinking they would be delivered in the promised time frame. In short they did not live up to their given word.

    And I guess I am old fashioned, but if a manufacturer cannot produce a product in the promised time frame or even worse takes orders to produce something and then cancels that production, why are they suddenly guilt free? Seems to me they made a promise to their customers and did not live up to it. They make enough customers unhappy they no longer have a business. But I guess in today's society where no one is ever at fault or responsible for anything, all of this does not matter at all anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen H. View Post
    Ok, I guess I don't understand where you're coming from saying you're on the hook about some reefers you have on order?
    I snipped the following directly from IMRC's page that was linked to upthread.




    I had several of the 50' Gunderson high cube boxcars on order from IMRC for the last 4-5 years since they announced them.
    Several months ago I had my dealer cancel them as I was tired of waiting for them and I had chose to use something different and also decided to downsize and focus my modeling needs and wants.
    Now I see that they are confirmed for production. But I'm not gonna hold my breath until I see them advertised for immediate sale. If I get some, I get some, if not.......oh well.

    And that you're very disappointed in Atlas, Intermountain and others because of the situation in China recently???
    Like they had any control over that?

    For these companies, it's a business so they can make a living.
    They are not in business to only make a few happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoon 45 View Post
    I pre-ordered 42 of those IM SF Ice Reefers when they were announced over 2 years ago. They were supposed to be released 3rd QTR of last year. IM is telling my LHS who I pre-ordered them through that it will be at least 4th QTR of next year before they are produced. I gave my word to my LHS that I would buy those cars and he ordered them. And I will not leave him hanging because IM can't produce something on time. So yes I am on the hook for them, I gave my word.

    And yes I am very much disappointed in Atlas and Intermountain. They choose to go to China, they choose to use the same factory as did a number of other manufacturers, and as a result when their single point of failure in their production chain failed they screwed over a lot of their customers who ordered things in good faith thinking they would be delivered in the promised time frame. In short they did not live up to their given word.

    And I guess I am old fashioned, but if a manufacturer cannot produce a product in the promised time frame or even worse takes orders to produce something and then cancels that production, why are they suddenly guilt free? Seems to me they made a promise to their customers and did not live up to it. They make enough customers unhappy they no longer have a business. But I guess in today's society where no one is ever at fault or responsible for anything, all of this does not matter at all anymore.
    The whole idea behind pre-orders is to find out if the need is strong enough to go to production , to see if the quantity they need to sell to break even and then make some money is at all doable.

    Your LHS will not loose any money if you retract your pre-order, they might however go out of business if everyone stops pre-ordering because then the manufacturers will not know what and in which quantities to produce, so your LHS will have nothing to sell.
    As long as I can model in N-scale, I know I'm not old

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  11. #26
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    I think where Dragoon 45's frustration lies is in the cancellation of announced pre-orders. IM is the poster child for this. Yes, it could be legitimate because there's not enough demand but from what I'm reading here and there (I'm not a pre-order type of person), it's just bad moves by the manufacturer for whatever reason. You keep doing this and soon people won't pre-order and we all end up in a vicious cycle.

    Dragoon 45's main theme is the principle. Manufacturers set up expectations for the consumers by making new announcements and they get the consumers' hopes up for something they really want and willing to pay for at the time of announcement. Then the manufacturer cancels the run or keeps postponing it ad nauseum. Major disappointment for the consumers. But what if we turn the tables in a hypothetical way? What if manfacturers do make the run and when it's delivered, the consumer decides not do buy the pre-order. For many reasons, say no longer have the funds because of the x years of waiting. Yes, probably the LHS gets the hit but the consumer has broken his or her principle and commitment to buy the product. A few times like this and the LHS won't pre-order becasue they don't want to take the hit which trickles to the manufacturers who no longer make runs based on pre-orders. Again a vicious cycle is developed.

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingmeow View Post
    I think where Dragoon 45's frustration lies is in the cancellation of announced pre-orders. IM is the poster child for this. Yes, it could be legitimate because there's not enough demand but from what I'm reading here and there (I'm not a pre-order type of person), it's just bad moves by the manufacturer for whatever reason..
    Wrong. A bad move by the manufacturer would be making a product that won’t sell. They can’t afford to make things that will sit on their shelves for the next ten years. As far as cancellation the system IM introduced last year addresses this. Just because a pre-order is announced, does not mean it will be produced. They are very open about this. This is a smart system that keep them in a position where they can stay in business.

    If anyone thinks they have a system that works better, don’t tell us about it. Pony up the cash and show us. I have yet to see one armchair business person rise to the challenge.
    Karl

    CEO of the Skally Line, an Eastern MN Shortline

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    It seems everything made now is modern stuff.
    Or SF. So I’ve never had to deal with it. And I wouldn’t.
    If it isn’t going to be guaranteed to be released in 3-6 months then I’m not going to preorder anything!

    When in the end it’s actually for sale, if I want it I buy it. I’m with Dragon, I’m not going to preorder something that takes years to produce, shuck, in 3 years I may no longer be in the hobby, or have the same interests... and with high school kids getting ready for college and a toddler, I may not have ANY discretionary funds in two or three years.
    SP & 53
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    Or, we could go back to the days of manufacturers each offering four locomotive models in six road names and one number each, with a new product offered every other year. It was great if you wanted a Santa Fe F9 off the hobby store shelf every time you visited, but not so much for pushing the hobby forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by railohio View Post
    Or, we could go back to the days of manufacturers each offering four locomotive models in six road names and one number each, with a new product offered every other year. It was great if you wanted a Santa Fe F9 off the hobby store shelf every time you visited, but not so much for pushing the hobby forward.
    On the other hand, back in those days there was much more modeling going on and a lot less whining and waiting for manufacturers to make a move. Resourceful and imaginative hobbyists, not Chinese factories, moved the hobby forward.

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  21. #31
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    Folks, times change and we can either change with them or be passed by.

    For me, change is happening so fast these days its hard not to get passed by.... So make the most of now, look towards the future and enjoy the past..... Do not dwell on it
    Be positive, Be polite, have fun with the hobby!

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  23. #32
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    I think I'm at the point where I want to be passed by, sure there's a lot of stuff that I'd like and the pre-orders look so tempting but these days my hobby dollars are in such short supply and their future availability so uncertain that if I buy things, I buy what's actually available.


    It all comes down to what each individual wants for the hobby and we have to face the fact that we have to live with the state it's in right now at this moment in time. I think we have to keep in mind the fact that this

    a. Is just a hobby (as much as I love it to bits)
    b. The companies in question do have to make a living and probably run on fairly minimal margins, as much as i don't like the whole pre-order thing
    if we want them to continue producing more models we have to understand that they have limited resources to invest
    c. S*** happens, the factory in China sideswiped a lot of people
    d. dare I say.. (and I'm not saying I agree with this at a visceral level ) maybe people don't *need* everything
    e. Everytime you pre-order it really is a game of chance.. there are no guarantees

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    Amen,Amen!

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    I've been in this hobby actively for nearly 40 years, and in N scale specifically for nearly 12 years. I learned that product availability in this hobby, like life itself, goes into positive and negative cycles.
    Buying stuff you want is always awesome, but "buying stuff" isn't all the hobby is about. TBH, I've bought models and supplies from hobby shops over the past few years that I haven't even opened yet.
    I really should be following my own advice, but during these negative cycles, focus on something like scenery, weathering, painting or track/layout planning (or re-planning) for a new layout, module or section f your existing layout that you think needs re-building. Or take up scratchbuilding or kitbashing. Or make that leap into DCC. Or even take a break from the hobby (don't feel ashamed, it's normal).

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  28. #35
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    Pre-orders are a fact of modern production. It helps keep costs to a minimum. I like pre-ordering. It's the waiting that I hate.
    Cheers!
    Gordon
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    SOO

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    Quote Originally Posted by el Gato Gordo View Post
    Pre-orders are a fact of modern production. It helps keep costs to a minimum. I like pre-ordering. It's the waiting that I hate.
    This is not directed at you, Gordon.

    I just don't understand the I-can-never-have-enough mentality coupled to the I-hope-a-bunch-of-other-people-preorder-too-so-I-can-get-the-latest-toy mentality.

    I won't base my hobby on being dependent on a manufacturer or other hobbyists to make things available.

    When does this insatiable Western toy collecting end? Is there not enough already? Anyone here besides me familiar with the word "contentment"?

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    Will life go on if the pre-order does not get produced? You betcha. Sitting here typing has my wheels spinning in my head.. WWWD? ( what would wyatt do?)
    1. Print off multiple copies of the manufactures logo that happens to upset me,, pin them to a target,, blast away!!!! Then maybe send those in the mail to said manufacture
    2. Focus on another part of the hobby, I STILL need to fine tune my Lok Sound decoders to get optimal performance with my Proto Throttle
    3. Do some scenery,, well,, maybe,, hey look its a squirrel!!!
    4. Run trains that I do have, and not worry about what I do not have!!

    I realize that not everyone thinks like me,, plus my 1400+ freight car inventory is telling me to quit the spending!! Everyone enjoys different aspects of the hobby, to each their own.

    I am wyatt and I approve this message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Schmidt View Post
    This is not directed at you, Gordon.

    I just don't understand the I-can-never-have-enough mentality coupled to the I-hope-a-bunch-of-other-people-preorder-too-so-I-can-get-the-latest-toy mentality.

    I won't base my hobby on being dependent on a manufacturer or other hobbyists to make things available.

    When does this insatiable Western toy collecting end? Is there not enough already? Anyone here besides me familiar with the word "contentment"?


    I know as of lately I've become very content with my collection.
    So much so that I'm thinning the herd as we speak..... but just today I was thinking about which of the new BLI Cryogenic tanks that I might get?
    Just thinking mind you, but when I took another look at the price......I said " $40 per car 1!"
    "Oh they're sure pretty and shiny, but what am I going to do with it? I don't even have an industry on the layout that could use it."

    I have a theory that it started when the manufacturers started printing multiple road numbers? "Oh wow! I need to get one of each number so I can have the complete set!"
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  36. #39
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    No umbrage taken, Paul. While my mind agrees with you (our dwelling and needs are modest), my eyes and heart say, "Oh,look! Arnold is offering an ICE 3 with lights and sound! Once it comes in, my Minitrix ICE 3 with no lights and no sound will go on the block at reduced rates to a local enthusiast.

    I imagine most of us are working with budgets that have competing demands.
    Cheers!
    Gordon
    Rheinland Bayern Bahn
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    Quote Originally Posted by el Gato Gordo View Post
    "Oh,look! Arnold is offering an ICE 3 with lights and sound! Once it comes in, my Minitrix ICE 3 with no lights and no sound will go on the block at reduced rates to a local enthusiast.
    At least you're not going to keep the old set Gordon!
    Nothing wrong with replacing or upgrading things.
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